storms

Laughlin, Nevada | February 2009
2009年二月|内华达州，拉夫岭
from ProjectCamelot Website
Camelot项目网站

I attempted to stress in my most recent book, NAZI INTERNATIONAL, that the postwar Nazis were not merely tiny enclaves of war criminals huddled, panic-stricken, together in tiny enclaves in Latin America and elsewhere.
They were, on the contrary, highly organized, well-funded, had their own intelligence and security apparatus, and most importantly, were conducting and continuing the lines of research they had begun during the war.
Dr. Joseph P. Farrell
我想在我的新书《纳粹国际》中强调，战后的纳粹分子其实并不是一小撮战争罪犯，惊慌失措的聚集在拉丁美洲或别处的一小块飞地。恰恰相反，他们高度组织化，资金雄厚，还有自己的情报和保安机构——更为重要的是，这些纳粹分子依然在继续着战时的研究。
——约瑟夫·P·法瑞尔博士

The title of this interview, Nazi International, refers to Joseph Farrell's latest book, in which he details - as do Camelot witnesses Jim Marrs and Peter Levenda, and many other researchers (including Jim Keith, who died in unusual circumstances and to whom we pay tribute here) - how the Nazis were experimenting with technology extremely advanced for their time, and how many Nazi scientists, evaluated as being valuable resources for post-war America, were repatriated to the US under Project Paperclip.
本次访谈的主题是《国际纳粹》，这是法瑞尔博士的新书。正如Camelot项目关键证人Jim Marrs和Peter Levenda一样，当然还有许多其他的研究爱好者（包括Jim Keith，他的去世非同寻常，籍此我们也沉痛悼念），法瑞尔博士在书里向我们详细展示了，德国纳粹如何进行科技实验的——而这些科技在当时来说，又极为先进；在书中，我们也了解到，有多少纳粹科技人员被当作战后美国的宝贵人才资源，通过“回形针行动”被送往美国。

We first heard of Joseph Farrell from Richard Hoagland - and soon after from Nick Cook, the author of The Hunt for Zero Point.
起初，Richard Hoagland向我们说起法瑞尔博士；不久，《搜寻零点》的作者Nick Cook也提起了博士。
Farrell, like Peter Levenda, is essentially an academic: a document researcher who digs deep into historical detail and has become fascinated, as many others have, with the hidden history of the Third Reich.
像Peter Levenda一样，法瑞尔博士也是学术派的作风：深入文献材料的历史细节研究，最终倾倒于第三帝国不为人知的历史。
He has continued Igor Witkowski's and Nick Cook's research into the enigmatic Nazi Bell: an experimental device, classified at the highest level, that seems to have been used to investigate time distortion effects or antigravity - very possibly both - based on the beginnings of theoretical torsion physics that was being developed in the 1920s and 1930s by a number of brilliant European scientists, themselves very much ahead of their time.
In this interview, Bill Ryan takes the lead and talks with Joseph Farrell in some depth about his work.
他在Igor Witkowski和Nick Cook的基础上，深入研究纳粹德国“BELL”项目的谜题——这个项目是一种实验性的设备，属于最高绝密，似乎是探讨时间扭曲效果或反重力，也非常可能是两者的共同研究；这个项目根据一些出色的欧洲物理学家在二十世纪二三十年代发展起来的理论扭曲物理学——这些物理学家远远超出了他们的时代。
在这次的访谈节目中，Bill Ryan领衔采访，和法瑞尔博士共同深入探讨他的探寻工作。
The interview takes the viewer on a journey which starts before the Second World War, and explores just what German scientists may have been doing in great secret, with the full support of the SS. And, as the title of the video indicates, the story by no means ends there.
本次访谈会带着观众一起从二战前开始旅行，探寻德国科学家在党卫队全力配合之下的那些不为人知的所作所为。正如这个视频的开头讲到的，我们的故事绝不会停止。
This video may be of considerable interest to students of wartime advanced technology, and of the hidden history of the Third Reich.
研究战时高科技的学生，或者热衷于第三帝国隐秘历史的人会对本片产生极大的兴趣。

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• a59159a 金币 +6 五一活动，双倍金币 2018-5-17 23:45

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Project Camelot interviews Joseph Farrell
卡米洛特计划访谈约瑟夫·法瑞尔
Video Trascription
访谈文字记录
Introduction
介绍部分
Bill Ryan (BR): ...So our job is to help you get your information out to the maximum amount of people.
比尔·瑞安（比）：我们的节目能为你最大限度的介绍读者。
Joseph Farrell (JF): Okay.
约瑟夫·法瑞尔（约）：好啊。
BR: And the people who do watch this information are a very eclectic bunch. We’ve got 16-year-old kids who’ve just woken up last month saying: What’s going on around here? Tell me. Tell me. And then we’ve got seasoned researchers like yourself, and even insiders themselves, who watch our videos to get a feel for what’s really going on.
比：看我们节目的人群不拘一格。有个小观众，刚满16岁，上个月看我们的节目入了迷：“这是怎么回事？说呀，说呀！”；还有久经考验的研究者，就像你一样；甚至还有些熟知内情的人们，看我们的节目时，会对事情真相有另外一种感觉。
JF: Okay.
约：好啊。
BR: And so, one of the reasons why we wanted to talk to you was because you’re a very cogent, lucid and articulate presenter of some very difficult information. I’m sure other people have told you that as well, but we recognize that.
比：我们之所以采访你，是因为你是一个很好的演示家，能把很难说的信息清晰流畅而且强有力的表达出来。肯定有人这样说你——我们十分认可这一点。
JF: Okay.
约：好啊。
BR: And we apologize for putting you under the camera here, to the extent that you don’t have your slide slow. [Farrell laughs]. You don’t have any prompts and you don’t have any notes.
比：抱歉！这次你虽然上了镜头，却没有PPT（约笑）；既没有提示，也没有稿子。
JF: I’ll do shadows. [laughs]
约：那我就摸着黑讲（笑）。
BR: The feeling we had about you is that you have a very good grasp of your information, and we respect that as well. So here we go. We’re rolling.
比：我们觉得你对材料把握的非常好。这方面我们很看重——好吧，我们开始录节目了。

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Start of interview
正式访谈部分
So... I’m Bill Ryan from Project Camelot. I’m here with my colleague Kerry Cassidy and we’re delighted to also be here with Joseph Farrell. And off camera just a few moments ago I checked that it was okay to call you Joe...
嗯……我是卡米洛特计划的比尔·瑞安。这是我同事Kerry Cassidy。我们很高兴能在这里做访谈节目。就刚才，还没开机的时候，我们之间的关系就变的近乎了……
JF: Oh, absolutely.
约：必须的。
BR: ...‘cause we’re among friends here, and that makes me feel a little bit more relaxed. You may be wondering, and some of our viewers may be wondering how come this is Bill here who’s doing this interview. And just as a little bit of a personal introduction about myself, and also maybe to some of our newer viewers, I’m... If we were the real X-Files, I would actually be Scully. [laughter] Okay? Meaning, I’m the one who’s slightly more scientific, slightly more skeptical, slightly more cautious...
比：这就像是朋友之间唠唠家常，我也挺放松。你和一些观众可能都在琢磨：为什么是我来做访谈？简单介绍一下自己，如果有新观众还不熟悉。我是……加入我们这个节目是《X档案》的话，我应该是Scully（笑）。为什么呢——我更熟悉科学，更有怀疑精神，也更细致……
JF: Right.
约：是吧。
BR: ...and this is why, between us, many people feel, and we feel ourselves, that we make quite a good team. So I have a math and physics background.
比：很多观众也是这样想的。我们自己也觉得团队分工不错！我本人有数学和物理方面的知识背景。
JF: Okay.
约：好吧。     
BR: I tend not to leap to wild conclusions, but at the same time I’m very happy to think out of the box...
比：我在访谈中就不瞎猜了。不过，我也愿意不拘一格的想问题……
JF: Sure.
约：行！
BR: ...as I strongly suspect you do as well.
比：我觉得你也是这种人吧。
JF: Right.
约：是的。
BR: And one of the reasons why we really wanted to talk to you besides the very high professional quality of your presentation on various interviews that we listened to, to prepare ourselves for this - is that the pieces of the jigsaw that you have collected through your diligent research seem to us to be essential understanding for anyone who really wants to know what’s going on today in geopolitics, in terms of “black science”, maybe even in terms of global agenda, who’s running the show, how it all started, where it all started, and when it all started.
比：我们做这个访谈，是因为曾经看过你其他的访谈节目，我们认为你的讲述专业性极高，所以我们也为此准备过。还有原因是，你的深入研究拼出了一幅图，从“Black Science”这个角度说，对于当今地缘政治学的理解极为关键；而且，也可以说从“全球议程”这个角度来说——都是大人物才玩得起的——你的研究是怎么开始的，从哪儿开始的，什么时候开始的。
JF: Okay.
约：好吧。
BR: And for the benefit of some of our viewers who may not know who you are...
比：为了方便观众，你是不是介绍一下自己……
JF: Okay. [laughs]
约：好吧。（笑）
BR: ...despite that introduction, give us your elevator speech about: Who is Joe Farrell? And how did you come to do what you’re doing right now?
比：不要太隆重，两分钟：你的个人情况；你是如何开始的？
JF: Well, Cliff Notes version: My father was an engineer, so I kind of grew up in a household where science was always kind of a main thing to be stressed, and I’ve always been, you know, individually interested in it. For quite a long period when I was a child, and all through high school later on, I wanted to be a physicist. And then, my senior year I got senioritis, I’m afraid, and wimped out of calculus and selected music theory as my alternative study, but [laughs] that proved to be almost as difficult, if not more so.
约：长话短说！我父亲是个工程师，所以在家里，科学一直很受强调。我在这个环境长大，而且也很受影响。我从小一直到高中的时候，都想成为物理学家。高三时有了厌学症，微积分没学好，所以就选修了音乐理论。（笑）结果也不比微积分简单多少。
So I was also a musician and I got into music. And then when I was in college I took philosophy and that diverted me even further away from my original goal, into philosophy and ancient texts. I’ve also always been interested in history and ancient things, and mysteries, and so on and so forth. So I did my Ph.D. in England and then taught college for a number of years.
所以，我还算能搞掂音乐。到大学的时候，我选择了哲学专业，离过去的理想越来越远了，当时学的是哲学和古文献。其实我对历史和古代的一些东西和神秘事件都很感兴趣。我在英国拿到了博士，后来去了一个大学教了几年书。
BR: In Oxford? Were you in Oxford?
比：你在牛津教课？
JF: No, no. I wasn’t a professor at all at Oxford. I just did my Ph.D. there. I actually taught college in Oklahoma. It was mostly philosophy and history, but I did do an inter-disciplinary seminar at one period of time. That was a team-taught seminar, and the way the other professor and I had to kind of divvy up the various disciplines that we were trying to pull together... Well, she was a biologist so she handled certain things, and I got physics because that’s always been kind of a hobby even though I abandoned the professional pursuit of it, so...
约：不是。我是在牛津拿了博士。在俄克拉荷马州教课，主要是哲学和历史。有关时间，我也搞过跨学科讲座，是一种团队教学的讲座。也是我和其他教授想把一些学科综合起来教学，我们分摊教学任务。有位女教授教生物，我负责物理——虽然说我都放弃了，但物理还是我的兴趣之一。
We also discovered we had a common interest, as it were, in the esoteric and alternative things, and I presented some of my Pyramid ideas to her and she says: Oh, you’ve got to do that for the class. So I did it for the class and they kind of really liked it, much to my surprise.
After I quit college teaching I decided: Well, you know I might as well bite the bullet and write some of my crazy ideas down. So that’s kind of [laughs] how I got started in all of this. That’s how it came about.
我们后来发现兴趣接近，都对难懂的非主流事物感兴趣。有一次，我把一些自己琢磨的金字塔的观点讲给她听，结果她说：你应该上课讲。我在课堂上讲了，发现学生好像很爱听——有点出乎意料。
我离开课堂之后，就决定了：我这回也玩一把狠的！把我这些疯狂的观点写出来。这就是（笑）我开始的情况。就这样开始的。
BR: So you’re quite a polymath.
比：那你是博学多才了。
JF: Ah... I have a lot of interests. Yeah. I wouldn’t say polymath, but, yeah, I’ve got a broad spectrum of interests. [laughs]
约：我兴趣广泛。不过也不是博学，只是爱好广发而已（笑）。
BR: You’ve already answered one of my questions, which is how come it appears evidently that you have such a grasp of the physics which your research has led you to be entangled with, if I can use that word.
比：第一个问题回答了——你的研究设计物理学，也难怪你有比较好的物理基础。
JF: Oh yeah. Well, when I was growing up I was the quintessential nerd. I mean, fun for me when I was a boy was playing with my daddy’s slide rule, you know? [laughs] So that kind of gives you the idea of what kind of person... I’ve always been a reader and to this day I still like to try and find physics papers online and pull ’em up and read ’em, and see what’s going on. So that’s kind of what I am.
约：是的。我大了以后，是个典型的书呆子。我小时候觉得爸爸的滑尺好玩（笑）——我爸就是那种人。一直到现在，我都喜欢阅读物理学方面的东西，网上有的，我就下载，仔细看。就是这样，我也就这个样子。
BR: Well good for you because it sounds like, from what we can gather, having talked to mutual colleagues such as Richard Hoagland...
比：很不错！有点儿像同行Richard Hoagland……
JF: Right.
约：是的。     
BR: ...and Jim Marrs, who we interviewed just this morning, is that you’re providing a real service in the information chain, as it were, in terms of providing researchers - who are trying their best to assemble a big picture - with some specific drilled-down components that you seem eminently qualified to have stumbled across. Or perhaps that sounds too clumsy. Actually, maybe you’ve been going after them very deliberately ever since you realized that there was something to go after.
比：还有Jim Marrs——早上刚采访完他。你的研究在信息链和证据链方面的贡献非常大。有许多研究学者也正竭尽所能想要拼出一副完整的图，你深挖出来的研究成果，对于这些学者的具体作用很大。可能这么说有点拗口吧。或者，你是不是这样的：在他们的基础上，你发现了值得追寻的东西，然后你有意的追随他们呢？
JF: Maybe.
约：差不多吧。
BR: Do you think that that is correct?
比：你觉得哪种说法对呢？
JF: Maybe somewhere between the two. One of the things that always struck me... My academic background is actually in theology, and it always struck me that many of the methods that theologians use are very similar, in some respects, to methods that physicists use. And that may sound wildly contradictory to what most people would think.
约：我觉得应该是二者之间。我的学科背景其实是神学宗教体系。我对一个现象很感兴趣：就是神学家们使用的很多方法基本雷同。从某些层面来说，这些方法与物理学家使用的很多方法也很接近。这和绝大多数人的想法大相径庭吧。
But in looking at ancient texts, particularly philosophical texts, it always struck me that I was looking at a kind of a topological metaphor rather than specifically a metaphysical text. And the further I went back, the more apparent that metaphor became, to the point that it even became possible to notate certain concepts in text with the actual notation conventions of topology.
查阅古文献的时候，特别是哲学方面的文献，我总觉得是在看“拓扑数喻”，不是那种纯哲学、形而上的内容。越往前看，就越觉得像。最后干脆认为可以用拓扑结构的符号取代一些古文献的概念。
So I thought, well, you know: That’s kind of wild! [laughs] So I didn’t share it. Doing the Ph.D., I didn’t share that idea with anybody, you know. But after I quit college teaching I began to look at texts that way, and to see... And I had done it privately. I’m not saying that, you know, all of a sudden I decided to do this. I’d been doing it privately for a number of years and keeping little notebooks of it. But yeah. It was kind of half-accident, and kind of an on-going interest. So somewhere between the two.
所以，我就琢磨：乖乖（笑）！不过，我并没有跟别人说起过，拿博士的时候也没有说。不再教书之后，我故意用这个方式来看这些文献，就是自己私下搞搞——不是说“哎呀！这是一项伟大事业”那样子。这样有几年的工夫，也记了几本小心得。所以说，这一半算是事出有因，一半算是我的兴趣所在。大概是这两者之间吧。

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BR: But there’s something that must have got you started specifically on the treasure-trail that led you to putting together a lot of the sub-jigsaw that was: What were the Nazis really doing before and during World War Two...
比：那也总有什么情况促使你开始拼这个图的吧：纳粹分子在二战前后到底在干什么……
JF: Right.
约：也是。
BR: ...that nobody else seems to have really realized? What was it that led you in that direction? What were the first things you found?
比：好像也真没有多少人意识到这个问题。是什么指引了方向？你第一个发现是什么？
JF: Well, the thing that always struck me that I don’t think has... And I don’t even include myself in this category. The thing that has always struck me about what kind of research the Nazis were doing is, on the one hand you have a definite esoteric, occult influence and interest that midwifes the Nazi Party into existence. You have a definite esoteric and occult influence at work after the Nazis take power.
约：使我产生兴趣的，我认为不是……这么说吧。我没有把自己归到这一类当中。我产生兴趣的是，纳粹搞的研究是什么性质。一方面，他们有绝对难以理解的邪教影响，也有这方面的兴趣——才能产生纳粹党。纳粹党当政之后，这些影响就要发挥作用。
And, you know, one of the things I like to point out is that the Nazi “State” with the SS and Heinrich Himmler, when he creates the Ahnenerbe Dienst [ed. note: Ahnenerbe Service] the so-called Ancestral Research Bureau...
我想指出一个情况是，有了党卫队和海因里希·希姆莱的纳粹“状态”，尤其是在希姆莱创立了“Ahnenerbe Dienst”之时，也就是所谓的“先祖研究局”……
If you go to the Nuremberg Tribunals and pull up the brief - you have to kind of dig for it but you can eventually find it - it’s a short little statement, declaration, that establishes this thing. But one of the things that he puts in as one of the purposes for this department is that it is to investigate all of these areas for their potential military application. Okay?
纽伦堡国际法庭上也有相关提要——你想更深入的了解，最终也能发现——就这么一个小小的声明或者宣言，就能为此成立这么个东西？希姆莱给这个局定的一个目标，是要探索研究这方面的所有领域，用于潜在的军事方面的应用！
So we have that influence at work. And then, on the other hand, as you know, being mathematics and physics background, you have during that period of - oh, say 1920 up to about 1931, ’32 - you have this spate of publications in Germany of various Unified Field Theories: Kaluza, Einstein, Eddington, and so on and so forth. So you have that kind of scientific ferment at work.
这就是所谓的影响在起作用。另一方面，你有数学和物理背景，你了解——从1920到1931、2年期间，德国有大批的有关“统一场理论”的出版物，代表作者是：Kaluza、爱因斯坦、Eddington等等等等。如果这方面的科学研究是面包，那么这些人就是酵母。
And then of course you add Gabriel Kron into the mix, a Hungarian fellow, electrical engineer who says: Hey! You know, he wins a prize at the University of Liège in Belgium for a paper in which he says: Well, we electrical engineers notice all of these anomalies in large rotating electrical systems, and we can explain those anomalies by appealing to these higher-dimensional physics Unified Field Theories.
当然还要加上Gabriel Kron，他是匈牙利人，在比利时的列日大学获得了诺贝尔奖。他发表的是论文大致上说，电力工程师发现在一个大型旋转电力系统中有不规则现象发生。如果应用高维度物理学的统一场理论，我们也可以解释这些不规则现象。
So in other words, if you stop and think of the implications of what he said, the technology of electrical circuitry, circa 1935, is producing anomalies only explainable by these higher-dimensional mathematical / physics theories. He’s telling you, in other words: These theories are engineer-able. They may be incomplete in the theoretical sense, but they’re nonetheless engineer-able theories. And that’s an important statement.
换句话说，你琢磨琢磨他的含义，1935年的电子线路科技所产生的不规则现象，只能用高维度数学／物理学理论解释。实际上，他是告诉你：这些理论是能够实际操作的。即使在纯理论方面不算完备，但绝对是可以实际操作的。这非常重要！
BR: Which is highly significant because he’s marrying two totally different worlds.
比：嗯！他等于是嫁接了两个完全不同的世界。的确非常出色！
JF: Oh yes. Absolutely. Yes.
约：那是必须的。
BR: Engineering in the practical; and the abstruse in the mathematical.
比：实际可操作；但在数学上又极为深奥。
JF: Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, one of the things that struck me... I’ve just acquired some of Kron’s papers. I went out and bought one of his books, a little old Dover book publication. But what he does is, he takes the tensor calculus and uses it as a way of analyzing electrical machines.
约：绝对是这样。还有个情况，我手头有Kron的一些论文，还买了他的书。你猜他干了什么？他使用张量微积分，用于分析电力机械。
BR: Now this is Einstein’s tensor calculus from his 1928 Unified Field paper?
比：是爱因斯坦1928年发表的统一场论文中的张量微积分？
JF: Yeah. This is... Right. And one of the things specifically that you’ll notice in Kron - although he doesn’t come right out and tell you: I’m now going to show you how torsion works - is he appeals to that very concept.
约：是。我还明确的注意到他的一个情况：尽管他没有直接站出来说，时空扭曲的工作原理。不过，他是在实现这个概念。
So you’ve got these two very different things going on as kind of an intellectual ferment in Germany at the time. You’ve got the esoteric and occult interest, and you have this very abstruse theoretical and engineering interest.
你看，在当时的德国，这两种不同的科学理论可以算作是科技发展的温床。同时你也有了邪教方面的兴趣，虽然难以理解，而且还有理论和实践方面的兴趣。
Now, I’ve always suspected that there is some sort of connection between the two. And this is kind of what got me interested in the whole “Bell” story, because the department of the German government that is conducting all of this very exotic research is precisely the SS.
我一直都怀疑这两者之间有某种联系。也是我一直对德国“BELL”项目感兴趣的原因，因为在当时的德国政府机关里，只有党卫队全盘执行这些独特的研究。

storms

BR: What year are we talking about now?
比：你说的这是哪一年？
JF: That’s another good question. the Bell project itself, I think you can make a kind of a case, actually has its conceptual kind of proof-of-concept stage beginnings before the Nazis take power, and may have been as early as circa 1924 and ’25.
约：问的好！BELL项目本身，就是一个很好的案例。实际上，它的理论实证早于纳粹党上台，应该是1924、25年。
BR: That early!?
比：有那么早？！
JF: That early. The reason that I say that is in one of my books I reproduce this little, oh, kind of a two-column filler article that ran in the Frankfurter Allgameine Zeitung, I think it was, but it was written by none other than Dr. Walther Gerlach.
约：就是那么早。我记得在我的一本书里，选用了《法兰克福汇报》的一个小补白文章，从左到右就两列。我认为是Walther Gerlach博士所写，除了他没别人。
Now Walther Gerlach, you know, he’s one of the most famous physicists at that time of history. He’s a Nobel Prize winner, you know... the famous Stern-Gerlach experiment.
Walther Gerlach博士当时可是物理学界最负盛名的专家，诺贝尔奖获得者——著名的Stern—Gerlach实验。
I thought: Well whoa! Because what he’s talking about in this article is the possibility of the transmutation of elements, specifically in regard to mercury-to-gold, and he’s calling it a “new alchemy.” And that just really brought me up short. Because you know, this is, number one, before the discovery of nuclear fission by Otto Hahn. Okay? So he’s got some very different concept in his head.
我当时就琢磨：哇！这篇文章说的不就是物质间转换的可能性，特别是水银变黄金！他管这个叫“新式炼金术”。我脑子直接就断片了。在Otto Hahn发现核裂变之前，这是绝对的头等大事。他脑子里的概念很与众不同。
BR: He’s a smart guy, he‘s not a...
比：这家伙聪明，不过他也不……
JF: [laughs] He’s a very smart guy! Yeah. This is not a second-stringer, you know. And when he uses this word alchemy, it’s crystal clear. I even reproduced the original German article and then translated it, so you know that I’m not making this stuff up, folks.
约：（笑）这家伙聪明！是的，绝对不是一般人。他说“炼金术”，非常清楚。我是直接选用了他的德语原文，然后翻译。所以，你们别乐，我可不是无中生有捏造出来的。
BR: It’s the same word in German, isn’t it?
比：德语单词也一样吧？
JF: Oh yeah. Alchemy. You can see it right there in an article. So he writes this article and then, it’s very clear, he makes a kind of a final little statement, that, you know: This should be investigated further and to do so it’s going to - hint, hint - require a lot of money. [laughs] So this is kind of the typical scientist’s appeal to the government. All right?
约：炼金术——德语和英语一样，你看原文。他写的文章很清晰，也有一个小结论，说：……应该深入研究！假设你要深入研究——这就是暗示！暗示要很多钱（笑）……典型的科学家向政府伸手的小把戏。是吧？
BR: Okay.
比：嗯。
JF: Well, the reason I think that the project may have begun at this time is because it is precisely Dr. Walther Gerlach who is the project head of the Bell for the Nazis.
约：我说这个项目很早开始的原因，就是因为Walther Gerlach博士本人就是纳粹BELL项目的负责人。
BR: Okay. Now, Joe, I wonder if I could stop you here, because what we’ve got here is we’ve got the first ten minutes of what’s sounding like a really interesting movie where [Farrell laughs] no one’s quite sure what’s going on here...
比：你先等一下再说。你说的这些，就像是一部好电影的开头十分钟（约笑），只是还不太了解一些具体情况……
JF: Yeah.
约：是嘛。
BR: ...but they’re interested.
比：但是，观众的兴致蛮高。
JF: Okay.
约：好吧。
BR: Now, for our viewers, Okay? We’ve talked about Einstein; tensor calculus - something that sounds very abstrusely mathematical that...
比：给观众总结一下吧。我们刚才谈到爱因斯坦，谈到了时空扭曲微积分——非常深奥的数学理论……
JF: It is! [laughs]
约：的确是（笑）。
BR: ...no one will understand; the Nazis; and something called the Bell. So what’s the plot-line here? Why should anyone...
比：这些太难懂了。纳粹的这个BELL项目，大致线条是什么？为什么要……
JF: Pay attention to this?
约：要关注！是吧？
BR: ...care about this extraordinary story?
比：对。要关注这个离奇的故事呢？
JF: All right. Very simple. It’s my belief... Just to give you kind of a very short Cliff Notes answer, it’s my belief, number one, that the Nazi atom bomb project was successful. Now, what I’m going to do is simply ask your viewers to accept that as kind of a “given” for the sake of argument so that I can kind of set the context. Okay?
约：好吧。其实也简单——还是长话短说。这是我的信念！第一、纳粹原子弹项目是成功的；我要求你们的观众顺着我的思路，先“接受”我的这个观点，然后下面我才能展开。好吧？
If you look at the project classification of the Bell, the Nazis classified it as kriegsentscheidend - [ed. note: war decisive]. In other words, within the classification system of the Third Reich, the Bell was classified absolutely uniquely and at the very pinnacle of the system, and it is the ONLY project in Nazi Germany to be given that specific classification. In other words, higher than the atom bomb. Okay?
你先看纳粹对这个项目实施的保密级别——Kriegsentscheidend（战争决定性的）。换句话说，在第三帝国的保密体系当中，BELL项目绝对处于顶点。而且，纳粹德国给予这个待遇是绝无仅有的，换句话说，比原子弹项目还要高。
So in other words, to the Nazis the atom bomb is, you know, already kind of “old stuff.” [laughs] Okay? So that gives an indicator of what the significance is. But if you look at the physics that they’re trying to investigate, I believe they’re investigating it for three things - for the purposes of achieving three things.
这么说吧。纳粹的原子弹项目已经是过时了（笑）。它的意义你就明白了吧。从物理角度来说，我相信他们是在研究三种情况，取得这三种情况的成功。
Number one, they want to free Germany from energy dependence on foreign powers and foreign oil. So, in other words, they’re investigating the so-called “zero point” energy. Okay?
第一个，想要给德国带来免费能源，打破德国对外国能源和油料的依赖。换句话说，他们在寻找“零点”能量。
Number two, the same sort of physics they have seen is kind of a gateway or window into advanced field propulsion, or antigravity if you want to call it that.
第二一个，同样的物理研究，又为“高阶场推进”打开了突破口——或者你也可以叫它“反重力”。
And the third thing of course, Nazis being Nazis, is that they want to engineer this physics for a weapon. And of course we’re dealing now with the physics that, again, can engineer the fabric of space-time, locally.
第三一个，纳粹分子本性好战。他们要把纯物理研究成武器。我们现在也在应用这方面的物理，操作本地的时空结构。
BR: Okay. Now, just once again to summarize this before we go into even more detail.
比：我们再总结一下，再接着说。
JF: Sure.
约：行啊。

storms

BR: What you’re referring to here is, you’ve picked up the research line that was started by...
比：你刚才说的这些，是从谁那儿得到的研究线索……
JF: Igor Witkowski.
约：Igor Witkowski。
BR: ...Nick Cook and Igor Witkowski. This thing that seems to have been called... well, for lack of a better word The Nazi Bell. We don’t know what they called it, do we?
比：……Nick Cook和Igor Witkowski。这个项目好像叫做，纳粹BELL计划。它德语叫什么来着？
JF: Well, actually they did call it Die Glocke.
约：德国人叫它“Die Glocke”。
BR: Die Glocke.
比：Die Glocke。
JF: And they had another nickname for it: Der Bienenstock - the beehive...
约：它还有个俗称，叫“Der Bienenstock”——就是蜂巢的意思……
BR: The beehive.
比：蜂巢。
JF: ...because of the sound it made. But one of the actual project code names was Projekt Cronos, or Project Time. Now, many people leap to the conclusion that well, they’re trying to build a time machine. Well, no. That’s... Time is involved because, again, you’re trying to use torsion to tap into the ability to manipulate the fabric of space-time.
约：……因为这玩意儿老是嗡嗡响。这个项目有一个代号叫做“Projekt Cronos”，或者时间项目。很多人看到这里就会猜：他们是要建造时光机吧。其实不是。这里涉及到时间，是因为你要用时空扭曲来达到操控时空结构的能力。
BR: What’s torsion?
比：什么是时空扭曲？
JF: All right. Torsion. The way I like to illustrate it very simply is: If you take a soda can and empty the soda out of it and then wring it like a dishrag, you’ve got that counter-rotating motion, and it’s going to spiral and fold and pleat that can, and then draw the ends of the can closer together. So that kind of is my simplistic illustration of what torsion does. And the can itself would represent space-time, okay?
我给你打个简单的比方。你拿一个空可乐罐，像扭抹布那样扭。这是一种反向的旋转运动。可乐罐两头逐渐合拢，有螺旋形的褶，最终会两头会合在一起。这就是时空扭曲，可乐罐代表时空。
Now, what they’re doing... I think ultimately, for the Nazis, the purpose of this is they want to weaponize it. And of course - and I say this over and over again in my interviews - if you’re dealing with a technology that has the potential to engineer space-time, that means that if you weaponize that, potentially you have a weapon that would make a hydrogen bomb look like a firecracker.
我认为纳粹最终的目的还是要把它武器化。我在访谈中说过很多次了——假设你懂科学技术能够潜在的操纵时空，一旦武器化了，在这种武器的威力面前，氢弹就像个炮仗。
It’s truly planet-busting stuff if you’ve got the proper engineering behind it and, you know, develop appropriate power systems and so on. Which again... one and the same thing will lead to zero-point energy, so there’s your power, [laughs] you know?
要是实验对了路子，开发出合适的能源，摧毁一个星球都不在话下。况且，同样的项目也是为了零点能源——源源不断的能源（笑）。
BR: And there’re some very smart scientists in that time.
比：那时候的人太聪明了啊。
JF: Oh yes! Absolutely.
约：那是！必须的。
BR: One might actually say “the world’s finest”, would you say?
比：这些人恐怕是“世界上的人尖儿”了吧？
JF: I would say so. And again, you know, this is why I kind of prefaced my remarks by mentioning the atom bomb, because the kind of the post-war Allied legend, as I like to call it, is of course the Germans were a bunch of nuclear bunglers, you know. And they didn’t have enough manpower. And they didn’t have enough money, you know, and all of this happy nonsense that you hear in the textbooks.
约：绝对是人尖儿。因此，我开头就说原子弹，好做比较。战后的盟军神话——我喜欢这么叫——说德国人在核方面经验不足，缺乏人才，还没有足够的资金……教科书上净是这些糊弄傻子的鬼话。
Well, to me this story really doesn’t make much sense. And you’re right. They’ve got Heisenberg. They’ve got Hartek. I mean, these people are not second-stringers at all. So yeah, what the Germans are doing... And I want to emphasize here the importance of why Nazism would be the ideological cauldron for this, because Nazism of course had banned “Jewish physics”. In other words: Relativity.
就我来看，教科书的话都是没脑子的。你说的对，他们有Heisenberg，有Hartck……这些人怎么可能是二流选手？我想强调一下为什么纳粹主义是意识形态高压锅的重要性，因为纳粹主义理所当然要严禁“犹太物理学”。换句话：相对论。
And they even had ideological difficulties with aspects of quantum mechanics because it was too statistical. It was too probabilistic. It wasn’t deterministic enough for some of the Nazi ideologues.
不过，他们却在量子力学方面遇到了意识形态的麻烦，因为这个学科太过于统计学和概率学。纳粹理学家强调的是所谓命运注定，而不是统计和概率。
But what is implied by this in the standard history is that within Nazi Germany you have an absolute stamping out of the scientific method and a dead-ending of physics. But I think if you look now, a hundred years after Relativity, we see precisely that physics has dead-ended. We have this kind of dogma in place now.
标准化历史所隐含的内容是，纳粹德国绝对具有可圈可点的科研方法，还有发展到极致的物理学。到相对论之后的一百年，我们肯定会目睹物理学的极致。这是教条主义的经验之谈。
What I think Nazism really did is it freed those people in a certain way to think outside the box, and all of that outside-the-box thinking took place inside the confines of the SS. And the signal event that kicks all this loose now in modern times - the reason we’re finding out about it - is precisely German Reunification. Why?
但我认为纳粹主义却是通过某种方法，让这些人跳出框框想问题——然而却是在党卫队的控制的范围内。然而，却有个标志性的事件让所有这些秘密松了口子，我们才得以有机会找寻——这就是两德统一。为什么呢？
BR: Right.
比：对。
JF: Because when the Eastern Zone is basically annexed in a shotgun wedding by West Germany... and that’s exactly how I would describe it. When that happens, all of those old SS installations in the Eastern Zone - some of which the Soviets didn’t even get into, you know. The SS blew them up and the Soviets never bothered to go into them. The Germans went back in there and looked at all this stuff, and it wasn’t showing up on any radar screen connected with rockets or jet aircraft or poison gas, you know, any of the other stuff that they were doing. And so they began to wonder: Well, what’s going on here?
约：两德统一实际上是西德上演“王老虎抢亲”，吞并了东部。我这样认为。在东德几乎有全部的老旧党卫队设施——有些苏联人根本没进去过。有些是被党卫队炸毁了，苏联人连进都懒得进……两德统一后，德国人重回故地——一看才发现，这些设施既不是导弹，也不是喷气式飞机，甚至和毒气也没有联系。他们就傻了：这是怎么回事？
And then of course Igor finds that very strange “henge”-like structure there in Ludwikowice, I think in Poland, which used to be Ludwigsdorf, and he’s wondering: What is this? [laughs] You know? Why is this here?
恰好，Igor在波兰的Ludwikowice附近发现了一座造型奇特的建筑物，类似英国的“巨石阵”。这地方过去叫“Ludwigsdorf”。Igor禁不住开始想了：这是什么东西？（笑）为什么在这里建造？
And of course this kicks loose the spate of declassification. This kicks loose a bunch of people coming forward from the old Eastern Zone, now able to talk about what they saw, what they observed. So this has kicked loose a fantastic amount of information.
两德统一也引发了解密大洪水。有些东德人也出来讲述他们看到的，观察到的。大量非常有意思的信息暴露出来。
BR: It’s very interesting what you are saying about the... Let me rephrase what you’re saying: The crucible of the state’s support and the state’s agenda was a perfect support system for a scientist who wanted the funding and the motivation...
比：你刚才说的那个什么非常有意思……我再复述一遍：对科学家来说，尤其是他们需要资金和鼓舞的时候，国家给予的支援和排到了国家日程安排上是极佳的支持体系……
JF: And to think outside the box.
约：还要跳出框框想问题。
BR: ...and all the resources to go and play with his toys and to do what all scientists really want to do, which is to invent something wild...
比：科学家们手里有各种资源，可以任意支配，任意发挥，结果就创造出出人意料的……
JF: [laughs] Yes! Exactly!
约：（笑）太对了！完全正确！
BR: ...that works.
比：不光出人意料，还非常有用。
JF: That’s exactly right.
约：非常正确。

storms

BR: And what some of our listeners will already be thinking is, like... they’ll be thinking: Wait a minute! This is what’s happening in Los Alamos and Hughes and Sandia and Bell Labs right now.
比：可能有些观众开始想了。他们一定在想：这不是跟Los Alamos、休斯实验室、Sandia国家实验室和贝尔实验室一样嘛！
JF: Uh huh! Yes. That’s right. Yes!
约：啊哈！是，一样的。
BR: At a different time and in a different Reich - [Farrell laughs] - which is what Jim Marrs would say.
比：只不过时间、地点不一样而已。（约笑）Jim Marrs肯定会这么说。
JF: Yeah. I wouldn’t have much of an argument with him either! [laughs]
约：是啊。这点上我基本上同意！（笑）
BR: But what I also think you’re saying, at the risk of putting words into your mouth, is that if we want to understand that stuff that I just mentioned, then we need to go back to exactly this paper trail that you’ve been following, because what we’re seeing nowadays is the progeny of that. Is that correct?
比：我也在想，就是用你的话来说吧——不过可能学的不像——假如我们想要理解我刚才说的，那就必须要严格跟随你的研究脚步。我们今天所看到的，其实都是德国那一整套支持体系的结果。对吧？
JF: Yeah. Nazi Germany is, you know, it’s really a weird state when you examine the scientific implications of it because...
约：是的。纳粹德国其实是一个很奇特的国家，假如你专注于它的科学影响的话，因为……
Let me go back to that SS department that Himmler sets up. Okay, you’re going to go out there and you’re going to research the Aryan heritage - if we look at the Nazi state and we go back to what Himmler sets up with this department - and he says: All right. Go out and investigate all of the aspects of the ancient Aryan heritage. But the mission brief is broad enough that he gives them.
我们回过头去讲希姆莱设立的那个党卫队部门吧——要走出去，要调查“雅利安血统”方面的情况。我们来看这个纳粹政府，再回到希姆莱建立的这个部门，他说了：好！走出去好好调查古雅利安血统所有相关方面。希姆莱发布的行动命令非常空泛。
Basically you have a department of the Nazi state created specifically for the purpose to investigate the esoteric, the occult, the hermetic, whatever you want to call all of this ancient lore, okay? For the specific purpose of military application.
这是个特别设立的纳粹政府部门，其目的是调查玄奥事件、神秘事件、炼金术士，所有一切古代的传说等。一切全都是为了军事应用。
BR: This again sounds eerily reminiscent of what we hear coming out of certain places in America right now.
比：现在美国也有几个地方也流传类似的说法。我们听过，挺吓人的。
JF: Yeah! Right. But here, what I’m emphasizing here, and what I want to kind of tie into what you said, is that this is the first time in modern history that a major world power has invested serious financial and personnel resources to do this. And it’s very, very clear, you know, in Nazi Germany’s case. So we have this cauldron, this crucible that, you know...
约：是的。不过，我想要强调的是，参考你刚才说美国也有，纳粹政府才是现代历史上第一个这么做的大国！在这方面花费了巨大的人力物力和财力。纳粹德国的这个案例，非常非常的清楚。这就像是一座密封的宝库（注：不清楚这两个锅的意思）……
I take kind of almost diametrically the opposite tack that a standard academic historian would give you of this Aryan physics. We know what the failures are. I mean, they’re palpable. They’re blatant. But the reason we don’t know about the successes, and the reason that we’re only hearing about them now, is not only German Reunification but precisely because that crucible was in the SS. It was all classified. It was also deeply black.
转过头来你再看看标准化的历史学家怎么给你解释雅利安物理学的——谁不知道他们失败的原因啊，原因太简单直白了吧！但是我们并不知道纳粹的成功，我们现在才听到有人讲这个，那不光是因为两德统一了，还有一个原因是这座宝库（注：翻译成宝库，也是推测其涵义吧）深埋在党卫队的内部。一切全都是机密，一切也都黑的深不见底。
But yeah, by freeing them from so-called “Jewish physics”, what they’re really saying is: We want you to think outside the box. We want you to come up with a completely different paradigm of physics. And if it’s engineer-able, [claps hands] go do it.
是啊。雅利安物理学就是把他们从所谓的“犹太物理学”的禁锢中解放出来。他们怎么说的：我们要让你跳出框框想问题。我们要让你拿出完全不同的范例。假如那是可以操作的，（一拍手）别废话，直接干！
BR: Okay. Now, interestingly enough, just last week we spoke with Peter Levenda. Do you know him and his work?
比：这可真是太有意思了！上周我们见了Peter Levenda。你认识他，看过他的书么？
JF: Oh yes. Yeah. I know Peter.
约：是的。我认识Peter。
BR: We were delighted to talk with him and, of course, he’s somebody who...
比：我们跟他谈的很不错。当然，他是那种……
JF: Oh yes.
约：哦，对。
BR: ...is a document researcher like yourself. And he described to us how he went to the very famous archivist, Dr. Wolfe...
比：跟你一样，都是在档案材料中找寻的。他给我们讲了个事：他去找十分著名档案收藏家Wolfe博士……
JF: Okay. Yes.
约：哦。是嘛！
BR: ...who showed him the archives of the SS Ahnenerbe.
比：Wolfe博士把党卫队“先祖研究局”的档案拿给他看。
JF: Oh boy! [laughs]
约：这小子好命！（笑）
BR: And his words were that his jaw dropped. He never knew such a thing existed. It’s really interesting to us that you’ve been down that same rabbit-hole. And what I’d love to ask you about - if this doesn’t deviate from your thought-line here - is: What is the connection between this hard, but brilliant and out-of-the-box physics, with the occult?
比：用他的话讲，就是看了之后，嘴都合不上了。他从来不都晓得有这么个情况存在。所以，你好像挺了解这方面的情况。有意思。那我想问你，先别怪我打乱你的思路——你说的这个跳出框框的物理学，说的这么斩钉截铁，把它说的那么辉煌灿烂，它跟所谓的“神秘事件”有什么联系呢？
JF: I think... Again, if you go back to the remarks I began with, I think if you go far enough back and look at certain types of texts, for example, the Hermetica, okay? And read them without the standard academic approach with metaphysics eyeglasses on, and read them rather as a topologist - as a mathematician - would read these texts, or as even a materials engineer, you know, might read these texts, what pops out of these things is a profound metaphor of a physical medium that creates information, and that’s a very modern idea.
约：前面我已经说过了。我认为，你尽量去翻看一些特定的古文献，比如说炼金术方面的，不要带着形而上的眼光，不要用标准化学术的方法——要像拓扑学家，像数学家那样去看这些文献，哪怕是材料工程师，一读之下你就会发现，这些文献充满了深刻涵义的譬喻。这就像是能够产生信息的物理介质，而这是非常现代的理念。
In fact, it’s so modern, you know, it starts popping up in the Soviet Union in the 1970s and begins to kind of spread from there. All of this stuff is popping out of the Soviet Union.
现代到什么程度呢？这种理念出现在1970年代的苏联，向外扩散。这方面的情况都是从苏联开始的。
So in other words, way back when - if we go back to the Hermetica - here we’re dealing with a text approximately, oh give or take, you know, 2,000 years old, so in others words... But it’s an Egyptian text even though it’s written in Greek. Its provenance is clearly Egyptian, okay? So this is very old and yet it contains this profoundly sophisticated physics metaphor.
还是说回炼金术吧——这种文献材料差不多有2000年之久，它是埃及文献，不过却是用希腊文写的，出处肯定是埃及。2000多年事件久吧，可是它有深刻而复杂的物理隐喻。
That’s what really popped out at me, you know, when I was reading these texts. It wasn’t that I was supposed to be looking and seeing Platonic Universals, you know, the chair-of-all-chairs and the horse-of-all-horses. No. None of that was what was popping out at me. What Plato’s talking about is topology. He’s talking about common surfaces with common forms, okay? So I’m looking at this, and then I’m looking at the Nazis, and they’re coming up with these theories essentially in the ’20s and ’30s that are looking at the physical medium as an engineer-able reality. In other words, in a certain sense, as an information-creating medium. So... And again, the key to creating stable information is rotation, okay? Torsion, and so on and so forth.
我就是看到这个才被打动的。我也不是要找柏拉图式的共性存在——椅子就是椅子，马就是马。不是。我看到的不是这个——我认为柏拉图其实是在谈拓扑学。他是在说共同表面形式下的共同外在形式。我看看这个，看看纳粹——他们在二三十年代就提出这种基本理论，把这种物理介质当作是可操作的现实情况对待。换句话说，某种意义上，是一种能够产生信息的介质。我现在又说了，能产生稳定信息的是旋转。那就是时空扭曲，等等等等。
So I’m thinking: Well, this appears to be precisely what we see going on with this Bell project. They are somehow pursuing this idea of physics. And one of the things that leapt out at me that kind of made this connection very clear is...
这，就恰好是BELL项目所进行的。他们一直在追寻这方面的物理学理念。还有一个我注意到的，让我觉得二者有清晰联系的……
In my book, The Philosopher’s Stone, I refer to a fellow by the name of “Himmler’s Rasputin” - if you can imagine [laughs] Heinrich Himmler having a personal Rasputin! Well this guy’s name is Karl Maria Wiligut. Okay? He has a number of aliases that he wrote esoteric treatises under. But his basic conception is that the whole universe arises out of a tension between two counter-rotating spirals which create the “World Egg”. Okay?
我的书《哲学家的宝石》里，有一个人物，我说他是“希姆莱身边的魏忠贤”……你琢磨琢磨（笑），还有能让海因里希·希姆莱听话的人！这个人名叫Karl Maria Wiligut。此人写了不少深奥的论文，有一串不同的笔名。可是，他的基本概念是宇宙产生于两个反向旋转的螺旋之间的张力，结果产生了“世界蛋”。
And when I saw that I thought: Oh boy! Because of course in the Bell, you know - which I rationalize as basically a kind of hyper-dimensional torsion physics device - you’ve got these two counter-rotating drums into which they’re putting this high-density liquid, which I think may have even incorporated an isomer as one of its components. And of course an isomer is one of these high-spin isotopes, that if you de-excite it, it will release massive amounts of energy.
我看到这个，吓了一跳：天哪！我们说BELL项目，我把它解释成一种基本的超次元时空扭曲物理装置。有两个反向旋转的汽缸，放在高密度液体中。这种液体或许合并了一种同分异构体，做为成分的一种。所说的同分异构体，其实就是一种高速旋转的同位素。如果激发它，就会产生巨大的能量。
Well, you’ve got these two counter-rotating drums, and I’m thinking: Well, here’s the physics that they’re doing, and we’ve got these two counter-rotating things. And over here, Himmler’s Rasputin is saying: Well, this is all coming out of two counter-rotating systems. You know? So I think, clearly, you had an ideological culture in the SS that, rather than inhibiting scientific progress, really kind of forced them to pursue all of this higher-dimensional physics.
你看，有了这两个反向旋转的汽缸，我就在想：这是物理学概念；他们也有了两个反向旋转的玩意儿——此时，希姆莱的魏忠贤又说了：什么也都是从这两个反向旋转的系统里出来的。我觉得很明显，这是党卫队的一个意识形态文化观念，但他们不是说要压制科学的发展进步，是这种意识形态文化在迫使他们追求这些高维物理学。

storms

BR: It actually gave them an inspirational boost.
比：这等于是给他们鼓舞和激励。
JF: Yes. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, the kind of... the final nail in the coffin, as far as I’m concerned is, if you look at the swastika itself, you know, and view that as not so much the corporate logo of the Nazi Party but as an ideogram of this whole physics idea...
约：不错。最后来一下子！就我了解，你看纳粹的“万字旗”，你别当它是纳粹党的标志，用物理学的角度来看……
BR: It looks like a vector diagram.
比：那就是一个矢量图。
JF: Yeah. It looks like a vector diagram. Exactly! You know, you’ve got a subsystem of rotation, you’ve got a subsystem of stress, and you throw them together and twist that thing, and there’s your parallel transports in the tensor calculus... and voila, you know, [laughs] you’re on your way.
约：对。真像个矢量图！有旋转子系统，有压力子系统……你这么一转，这就是张量计算的并行传输。瞧！（笑）你这不就上路了么！
Kerry Cassidy (KC): In a sense, that symbol came out of India.
凯瑞·卡西迪（KC）：其实，这个符号源自印度。
JF: Oh sure. Yeah.
约：哦。当然了。
KC: They actually went back to the original meaning of the symbol, and picked up on it because it was supposed to have been...
凯：他们其实认识到了这个符号原始的意义。之所以选用这个符号，是因为它应当是……
JF: Yes. Bingo. Bingo! Exactly! And, you know, if you kind of can imagine Walther Gerlach being challenged, you know. Let’s assume the project’s underway when the Nazis take power. Gerlach got his wish. He got funding from the Weimar government, and he’s doing his spin experiments, okay? He was fascinated with spin and magnetic resonance and gravitation, you know. He corresponded with the Austrian physicist, Thirring. You know, the Lense-Thirring Effect. Satellite drag and all this, you know. This was his bag.
约：厉害，厉害！非常正确！咱们来看看Walther Gerlach遇到问题怎么办。先假定纳粹上台之后，这个项目开始运作。那么，Gerlach也实现了愿望——先是从共和国政府得到资助，着手他的旋转实验。Gerlach非常迷旋转、磁场共振和重力这些东西。他和奥地利物理学家Thirring保持通信——Thrring出名是因为Lense—Thrring效应。卫星曳力方面的全部——这是他的专长。
So imagine the Nazis coming in and saying: Well, Professor Doktor Gerlach, we’re going to shut your project down. It looks too suspicious to us. It’s dealing in areas we don’t want to deal with. It’s not part of our ideology. Well, all Gerlach has to do is say: Herr Himmler, it’s right there on your armband. He’s already sold them, in a certain sense! [Bill laughs]
设想一下纳粹分子登门拜访（学德国腔）：Gerlach博士教授，我们准备让你的项目下马。我们对你的项目有些疑虑——你现在搞的领域，我们并不想搞；也不符合我们的意识形态。Gerlach能说什么呢？他说：希姆莱先生，你看看袖标吧。所以，纳粹也不能不买他的账！（比笑）（注：盖世太保袖标是纳粹党旗，带有“万字”。也就是说，Gerlach所研究的内容，其实是国体的一部分，只不过是在物理方面。）
And you’re right. Because the other thing about the Bell that I should mention in this context with India is that this Xerum 525 that they’re putting inside this device and spinning up... Well, number one, it’s a liquid. Number two, it’s of heavy density. Number three, it’s of a kind of a maroonish-violet color, okay? Very heavy.
其实你说的很对。要说起BELL项目的一个情况，联系起印度——是这个Xerum 525，他们是把它注入装置内然后旋转……那么，第一这是液体；第二密度很大；第三呈紫红褐色。重量非常大。
So I’m thinking: A liquid metal. Mercury. So probably mercury is one thing. And there’s your connection to India. Because of course as you know, in the Vimana texts you have references to mercury vortexes. And, just to kind of make a final nail in the coffin, mercury’s kind of an ideal candidate if you’re going to use plasmas in this thing.
我认为这是一种液态金属，汞吧。当然很可能汞只是其中之一。这就联系上了印度。你也了解，在《维玛那书》里面就提到了汞涡旋。最后补充一下：要在这玩意儿里头产生等离子体，汞是理想的材料。
And again, you know, you have astrophysicists in Germany - Houtermans - looking at the sun thinking: Okay, we’ve got nuclear fusion up there. And they’ve already noticed the sun rotates but the plasma is rotating at different velocities, so you’ve got this “differential rotation” they call it, but that’s just a fancy word for, you know, it’s rotating at different velocities. And they’re putting all this together in this device.
德国还有天体物理学家Houtermans，他盯着太阳自言自语：嗯。这上边儿有核聚变。他们已经注意到太阳自转，但等离子体的旋转速度不同。他们称之为“较差自转”——这是个专业大词儿，就是旋转起来速度不一样。他们也把这个加入到这个装置。
KC: What about the Vimanas? You know, what was in essence flying saucers way back when? Do you think that they might have gotten the idea there?
凯：那么维玛那呢？本质上这是一种飞碟，年代极为久远……他们是不是也有这方面的收获？
JF: From those ancient texts? Let me put it this way: I don’t think it’s even necessary to say that that might have been a motivation. However, within the culture of the SS that is conducting this research, you’re going to have one department, the Ahnenerbe, reading these texts and taking them to the scientists to analyze. And the scientists are going to look at these things and say: Oh, isn’t that interesting?
约：你是说他们从古文献里面？这么讲吧。我觉得其实没必要说维玛那是一个动机。然而，在党卫队的文化中，也有这方面的研究。“先祖研究局”就做最后部分工作——他们先查找古文献，再拿给科学家去分析。科学家看看，然后会说：嗯！这个东西也挺有意思的。
Because over here Professor Doctor Gerlach has been studying this. He won a Nobel Prize for examining aspects of this type of physics, and he’s been investigating and researching ever since. And they’re putting these two things together. I think that’s what’s happening in Nazi Germany. They’re doing the first attempt, in a certain sense, to go back at these ancient texts and say they contain a scientific metaphor, and therefore a technology. And we have these papers now that we can see this. Let’s try and reconstruct it.
这位Gerlach博士教授也一直在研究这个。他拿诺贝尔奖也是因为研究这方面的物理学，这方面的工作他始终没有放松。他们是把这两种情况捏合到一起了——我认为这是当时纳粹德国的情况。他们的做法是，先找寻并研究这些古文献，发现里面有科学涵义，接着再推导出相关科技。我们有这方面的材料，能看的到。我们来组织一下这些情况吧。
This is a vital thing because that means they have also seen - and this is, again, a part of Nazi ideological belief - that there was a very sophisticated ancient civilization. So in another sense then, yeah, they’re trying to reconstruct this stuff. In that sense they’re kind of a resurrection of Atlantis.
这个是极为重要的，因为他们认为这些都属于纳粹的理念信仰——地球上曾经存在过非常发达的古文明。从另外的角度考虑，他们也在试验还原这些东西。可以说，他们是在重建亚特兰蒂斯。
BR: Hmm.
比：嗯哼。
KC: Then are they looking at the Egyptian pyramids and the Sumerian seals…
凯：他们是不是也把目光投向埃及金字塔和苏美尔印章……
JF: They’re looking at everything. [laughs]
约：他们涉猎的东西多了去了（笑）。
KC: …and they’re getting all kinds of clues.
凯：……他们也有很多收获吧？
JF: Oh yeah! Absolutely they are, you know…
约：是！是有很多收获……
BR: Because at exactly the same time as this they were mounting expeditions all over the world to try and get hold of…
比：当年，他们可是满世界派出考察队。他们可是……
JF: Oh yes.
约：是啊。
BR: …anything they could get a hold of.
比：他们可是逮着什么要什么。
JF: Oh yes.
约：是。
BR: That would give them clues to all of this, right?
比：很多线索都有价值，对吧？
JF: Well, in this regard, this idea of an ancient civilization in trying to get clues into it; you’re familiar with the ‘38-39 Schafer expedition to Tibet.
约：这方面嘛，有关搜寻古文明线索方面，你应该比较熟悉38-39年的Schafer西藏探险的情况吧。
BR: Yes.
比：熟悉。
JF: Okay. Well, Himmler was a personal sponsor of this. What I find interesting is that, in spite of the heavy influence of the British Raj in Tibet, the Nazis not only were able to gain entry into the Potala from the regions. They came out of Tibet with an entire copy - as Peter Levenda’s research establishes - an entire copy of the Kangschur; this ancient Tibetan epic which is supposed to be about this very sophisticated ancient civilization. And they make it back to Germany with this.
约：希姆莱可是私人赞助了这次活动。我觉得意味深长的是，尽管英属印度在西藏的影响面很大，这些纳粹还是从印度进入了西藏，获准进入布达拉宫。Peter Levenda研究认为，他们从西藏带走一整套“Kangschur”复印材料，这是西藏的古代史诗，记录了这个极为发达的古文明。这些人后来带着材料回到了德国。
BR: And they knew its importance.
比：他们也了解其重要性吧。
JF: Oh yes absolutely they did, absolutely they did.
约：完全了解。
KC: So some of their technology could have come from Tibet as well?
凯：是不是有些纳粹科技可以说是从西藏得来的呢？
JF: I think some of their technology has to... Some of their thinking has to come from looking at these texts and looking at all of these very abstruse ideas in physics and putting them together because they fit so snuggly at places at times that it really is astonishing. You know, I didn’t dare write about any of this when I was a professor. [laughs] That’s why I wait until after I get out of there. Now I’ll write it down.
约：我认为他们部分科技是这个……应该说是有一部分点子是翻阅这些文献得来的，还有就是研究深奥的物理学概念。然后，把两者结合在一起。很多情况下发现二者完美匹配——这是非常惊人的。不过，我教书的时候就不敢这么写。（笑）所以要等到不教书了，现在才敢写。
BR: The least one can say about it is that this is all the work of intuitive genius.
比：不得不说，这些工作都是灵感和天才的产物啊！
JF: Yes, I…
约：是的。我……
BR: That’s the least one can say.
比：不得不这么讲。
JF: That’s the least that one can say. And again, the fact that we have an organized department of the government - and a secret one at that - doing this, that means it’s organized.
约：必须的。现在，纳粹组成了一个政府部门，当然也是保密单位——这说明这套工作是有组织的。
BR: Yup!
比：对头！
JF: And that, to me, implies that - as you’re implying - that to me indicates that there is some deliberation being taken in thinking and rationalizing all of this out.
约：我以为，这意味着，就像你话里的意思——巧妙的思维和切实的运作相结合。
BR: Okay. Now let me just dispose of one question here that our viewers will want me to ask.
比：好。我再问一个观众提出的问题，让我问。
JF: Sure. [laughs]
约：问吧（笑）。

storms

BR: Actually, and secretly, I want to ask it myself too. This is the claimed inference of the Vril Society; those young girls who were channeling, remote viewing, accessing clairvoyant information - whatever you want to call it.
比：这个问题其实，我也想问自己来着。就是所谓的“沃瑞尔协会”——这个协会有一帮年轻女子，能通灵，会遥视，未卜先知，等等等等吧。
JF: Okay.
约：接着说。
BR: That’s been much vaunted…
比：有些理论学家甚至吹嘘……
JF: Yes.
约：对。
BR: …by theorists who claim that they were accessing information that may have come from other realms or other planets or whatever.
比：……说这些人能从另外的空间和世界得到信息。诸如此类吧。
JF: Right.
约：是。
BR: What’s your take on that?
比：你有什么看法？
JF: I don’t base my analysis of the Bell Project, or anything like that, on channeled information or on Neo-Nazi sources. My problem with this story is precisely those two things. That it comes, first of all, from a source that is anecdotal and, secondly, that the ultimate source that’s putting it out has some very shady kind of Neo-Nazi ties, okay?
约：其实我并没有根据这些通灵呀、新纳粹主义来源呀什么的，分析BELl项目或其他项目。你说的这个有两个很明显的问题：首先，这个说法本身就很“子不语怪力乱神”；其次，这个说法的最终出处怎么说也有点和“新纳粹主义”刮边儿吧。
And there’s no other corroboration of it other than the fact that we know that something called the Vril Society did exist, and we know it because it was the German rocket scientist Willy Ley that first mentioned it when he came over to this country to escape the Nazis.
而且，你也找不出多少客观事实证明这个所谓的“沃瑞尔协会”的确存在过。这个说法也是德国火箭专家Willy Ley曾经说的，他当时逃离了纳粹的魔掌，投奔美国。
BR: Mm-hm.
比：嗯哼。
JF: Okay. So we know that that society existed. We don’t know much about it. They did publish a small thin little brochure in Berlin prior to the war. I haven’t been able to get a hold of it. I don’t know what it’s contents are. So, as far as I’m concerned, this is a story that, number one, has kind of a suspect origin and, number two, I haven’t been able to find anything other than this story to corroborate that the Nazis were doing this.
约：好！就算有这个什么协会，可是却知之甚少。战前，在柏林有一本小册子出版，不过我没弄到，所以也不知道内容。就我目前了解的情况，我认为这就是个传说——第一、来源可疑；第二、除了这个协会本身，我还没找到其他作证，证明纳粹有这方面的举动。
I do know that the Ahnenerbe is doing research that we would now consider paranormal or psychic or remote viewing or what have you. Certainly they were. So you’ve got a general context in which something like that might have taken place, but they are alleging that this took place toward the end - in fact in some cases during World War One and toward the end of World War One - long before the Nazis are even on the scene.
我知道纳粹有“先祖研究局”在调查我们认为的超自然哪、特异功能啊、遥视什么的你刚才说的。换了你，你也查！你说的也只是那么一说，有这个情况发生，不过有人也说这个发生的很早，差不多是一战期间或者是一战结束起啊。这离纳粹当政还早着呢！
BR: I thought it was in the twenties.
比：我想在二十年代吧。
JF: No. I think one of these was 1916 and another one was in 19 - and again, I may be mistaken - 1919 I think, close to Berchtesgarten, which is another unusual little coincidence [laughs] in this story, but...
约：不是。我记得一个是在1916年，另一个是，可能不对，是1919年吧。在贝希特斯加登附近，这地方在这个故事里，（笑）可另有一个不同寻常的巧合。不过……
KC: But did you investigate the remote viewing, like the origins of remote viewing, in the Nazi…
凯：你有没有调查过这个，纳粹的遥视起源……
JF: No, no I haven’t. That’s an aspect of the story I think again that is going to come out eventually. The problem now is getting... There are massive amounts of Ahnenerbe documents in the US national archives, but many of them are still unavailable, so the problem is being able to tell a complete story. You see, that’s the whole problem here. It’s not that I don’t think that there is one but right now all we have with the Vril Society is a kind of a general kind of corroboration of a context.
约：没调查过。你说的这个情况，我认为最终会浮出水面吧。因为，问题在于，美国国家档案馆里有大量的“先祖研究局”的档案材料，不过很多都看不到——这个问题本身就有问题，对吧？这方面的问题大了去了——不是说我认为没有你说的情况，而是现今我们没有这个“沃瑞尔协会”的其他作证。
BR: Yes. And presumably you’re also sort of invoking Occam’s Razor by saying it’s not necessary to…
比：嗯。你刚才说“没必要……”的时候，我就琢磨你要说“奥卡姆剃刀理论”了吧……
JF: To go there.
约：会说的。
BR: I understand that.
比：我明白了。
JF: Exactly. It’s not necessary because you have another occult influence at work already within the SS that has a specifically detailed conceptual relationship to the physics being investigated with the Bell and that’s this guy Wiligut.
约：那好。我说“没必要”，是因为在党卫队里，也有所谓的“玄奥神秘”的影响力在起作用，而且当时党卫队机关也在通过BELL项目明确而认真的研究这方面的物理学。这不就是我说的“希姆莱身边的魏忠贤”，Wiligut么？
BR: Yeah.
比：对。
JF: Right. So you really don’t even need to go there. It would be kind of nice icing on the cake, you know, if they figured out: Well, consciousness plays a role in this too and we’re going to investigate that. Well if they’re rationalizing things to that extent, yeah, then we’re in even deeper trouble. [laughs]
约：那好。所以，那些方面就没必要了。不过，你得明白，如果说纳粹也发现了意识和物质之间有联系，并开始着手研究的话，到了那种程度——一方面这对纳粹是锦上添花，但我们可能就会更加麻烦了（笑）。
BR: Okay. Now after all those fascinating set-ups…
比：嗯。这么多引人入胜的花样……
JF: Okay. [laughs]
约：差不多吧（笑）。
BR: …our viewers here, who are thinking this sounds like a detective story; this sounds like Columbo...
比：观众会觉得就像看侦探小说一样——《福尔摩斯探案集》
JF: Or a bad Oliver B movie. [laughs]
约：你其实是想说姜文的《太阳照常升起》吧（笑）。
BR: What was the Bell? What were they trying to do? And what is known what is not known what is theorized and why is this important?
比：那么这个BELL是什么？他们想要做什么呢？有哪些情况是已知的，哪些是未知的，哪些建立了理论，为什么这么重要？
JF: Okay, let me give you the basic data points and then I’ll give you how I kind of rationalize them. My rationalization of it is a bit different that Igor Witkowski and Nick Cook although I kind of build on some aspects of their analysis.
约：我来讲一些基本的数据要点吧。我是如何解释这些要点的——我的解释可能跟Igor Witkowski和Nick Cook有所不同，但是我的一些观点也是建立在他们分析的基础之上。
First of all it’s a device, it’s bell shaped, it stands about twelve to fifteen feet high, nine to twelve feet wide. It’s either cased in a kind of a ceramic metal or just plain old ceramic. It’s got heavy duty electrical port cable - electrical cabling ports - around the device.
首先来说，BELL是一个装置，教堂大钟的形状。高度大约12到15英尺，9到12英尺宽。外面的套子如果不是金属陶瓷，就是普通陶瓷。使用高负载电力端口电缆，电缆端口环绕装置。
Inside the device there are two counter rotating drums - and I want to be clear here. The data that we have does not specify the internal configuration of those drums within the Bell. These two counter rotating drums had a 'serum' - this Xerum 525 (see Hunt for Zero Point) I mentioned earlier - the heavy maroonish-red, probably mercury, compound.
在装置内部有两个反向旋转的汽缸——这里我要说明白，我们手上的材料，没有明确的说明两个汽缸在这个钟型装置的内部。这两个反向旋转的汽缸有“血清”状液体——这个Xerum525（见《搜寻零点》）我之前提过——呈暗红褐色的混合物，很可能是水银。
It is cryogenically cooled either by liquid oxygen or liquid nitrogen and it is close to an electrical power plant and sounds like a beehive Okay? The electrical power plant is kind of to put an hyperbole on it near yards away from the installations that the Bell is being tested in all right?
采用低温冷却技术，要么是液态氧，要么是液态氮。这个装置紧邻发电厂，响的时候像个蜂巢。发电厂贴近这个装置的实验实验设施，近到夸张——只有几码远。
BR: The kind of hum you get from a high voltage generator.
比：是不是那种高压发电机的嗡嗡声？
JF: Yes. Okay. Now let’s put all these things... Those are the data points, and the…
约：是吧。现在我们来把这些情况都……那些都是数据要点，以及……
BR: And this is known how?
比：这个情况是怎么泄露出来的？
JF: This is known by an SS general by the name of Jakob Sporrenberg who was part of this project because he was the general that was tasked, at the end of the war, to go in and murder sixty of the scientists involved with the project.
约：一个党卫队将军，名叫Jacob Sporrenberg，他参与了这个项目。战争结束前，上级交待他要干掉六名项目科学家灭口。
BR: Hm.
比：嗯！
JF: In other words the Nazis want to keep this thing absolutely quiet.
约：也就是说，纳粹是想把这个项目完全隐藏起来。
BR: I didn’t know that.
比：这个我还真不知道。
JF: Oh yeah, that’s how all this comes out. He’s tried for that crime by a Polish War Crimes Tribunal because, of course, Poland slid westward and took over parts of Pomeranian Silesia that were formerly German provinces. And the Bell was tested in that part of Germany that then became Poland after the war.
约：这件事就这样泄露出来。Jacob Sporrenberg将军在波兰军事法庭上因此罪行受到起诉，因为波兰向西扩张，拿下了波美拉尼亚西里西亚的一部分，这部分过去是德国领土。BELL项目就在此处进行实验，战后这片土地变成了波兰领土。
So Poland assumed jurisdiction over this man for that crime and we know it by the affidavit that he gave at that war crimes trial, okay? But it’s important again to realize, it’s after the collapse of the iron curtain, it’s after the collapse of the east German state and basically the shotgun wedding that was had in 1989, that all of this comes out.
所以，波兰对此人的罪行才有管辖权。我们也是通过他在法庭上的供词才了解到。不过，这一切也是在冷战结束之后，东德1989年并入西德之后，才浮出水面。这也很重要。
Now, Sporrenberg also describes the effect of the device on plants. Plants exposed to the field of this thing when it was operating would decay to a kind of a brownish grey goo within a matter of either hours or weeks, this would vary.
Sporrenberg在供词中有描述这个装置对植物的作用。把植物对着这个装置，一旦它开动起来，植物就会腐坏成灰褐色，变的黏糊糊的，时间从几个小时到几周不等。
BR: They’d come apart.
比：分解了。是吧？
JF: Yes. They’d just literally fall apart, just blugh, and they would do so without putrefaction. The first time it was tested apparently the Germans had not done something correctly and seven of the original scientists of the project were killed when it was tested the first time. Later on, apparently, they learned how to kind of control some of these deadly effects a little bit more reasonably.
约：这些植物的确是变的支离破碎，就这么一下子，没有经过腐烂就这样了。第一次实验的时候，德国人好像什么过程做的不对，结果项目最初七名科学家都死掉了。后来，他们似乎学会点经验，可以稍微好一点控制这种致命效果了。
But those are the data points. And one little final bit of information - a final bit of data point... When it was tested underground it had to be tested in a room lined with ceramic bricks over which were placed rubber mats. After each test concentration camp victims would come in, remove the rubber mats, burn the mats and then scrub down the ceramic bricks with brine - okay? That had to be done for some reason after each test.
最后一个要点。当这个装置在地下进行实验的时候，实验室全部都砌瓷砖，上面还盖着橡胶垫。每次实验过后，集中营的奴工要进去撤掉橡胶垫子，还要烧掉；再用浓盐水用力擦洗瓷砖。每次实验之后都这么做——这一定是有原因的。
BR: Radioactivity?
比：难道是放射性？
JF: Yes I think so, I think so. Again... and I’m mentioning that because it’s a crucial data point. Then, when it was tested outside, it was tested apparently inside this henge-like structure that is near all of these strange installations with this electrical power plant right there.
约：我觉得也是。我说这个是因为这是个关键点——这个装置露天实验的时候，这个装置是放在“巨石阵”里的，附近有很多奇怪的建筑设施，是个发电厂。
This henge stood in a kind of a basin - a pool - it looks like, that would have contained some sort of liquid. Around the perimeter of this pool there are... And you can see this on the History Channel documentary with Nick Cook. Igor takes Nick down into this structure and you can see these entry ports for all of this heavy duty electrical cabling, okay?
“巨石阵”的下部像个水池子，看起来应该会放一些什么液体。池子周边……你看过历史频道Nick Cook的纪录片吧。Igor带着Nick下去过，有好些入口端，是布设高负载电缆的。
Apparently, when tested at night, these concentration camp inmates described this barrel-like thing that would glow a pale blue glow and it would rise above the tree line and kind of sit there and then it would fall back down; lower back down.
有时候，实验在晚上进行。住集中营的人描述说，他们看到这个桶一样的东西闪着浅蓝色的光，升到树梢的高度悬浮着。然后越降越低，越降越低。
So those are our data points. I don’t think that the dimensions of the device, at this point in my research, are functionally significant so let’s turn to the cryogenic cooling, okay? We’re dealing already we know with a device that is using these two counter rotating cylinders, and I suspect that their centrifuge isotope technology had something to do with this, because they’re using ultra high mechanical rotation.
这些也都是要点。在我目前的研究里，我觉得这个装置的“维度”也并没有很好的起什么作用。我们就回头说说低温冷却方面吧。这个装置有两个反向旋转的汽缸，我很怀疑他们的离心机同位素技术跟这个有什么关系，因为他们使用的是超高机械旋转。
In other words, this is a precision machine, and it’s being cryogenically cooled. And the first thing that I think of is super-conductivity, you know. Again, high spin system, little resistance. It’s a kind of a self contained little bubble of its own...
这么说吧。这是一种精密设备，采用低温冷却技术。我头一个能想到的，就是它的超导性。你看，又是高速旋转系统，几乎没有摩擦力。它自带小气泡（注：这句话不明白）……
BR: Was superconductivity understood in the physics of that time?
比：当时的物理学上也懂超导性么？
JF: Oh yeah. Sure. Then the next thing is we have this mysterious substance which they’re putting into these cylinders and spinning at high speed. I think that the presence of this power plant and the sound of the Bell, as a beehive, indicates that this whole thing was electrically pulsed with extremely high voltage direct current electricity.
约：当然了。他们注入汽缸的是一种神秘的物质，汽缸高速旋转。这个发电厂的存在，和这个装置的声音，像蜂巢的声音，说明整个的装置是电力脉动式的，使用极高压直流电。
And that the drums were set up - and Igor agrees with me here; this is his analysis that I’m borrowing from - that you have a cathode and an anode and this will arc to the centre. And as this stuff is spinning and cohering along the same plane of rotation and being pulsed, electrically pulsed, it’s going to drive it inward, create little plasmoids, and you’re going to get even more spin out of this thing.
那两个汽缸——这一点Igor同意我的看法，这也是他的分析，我借来用——分正负极，在中心产生的电弧。这玩意儿旋转的时候，在同一旋转平面相凝聚（注：此处应该有误），受电力脉动，驱使它向内，产生极少的等离子粒团，旋转会越来越快。
So, in other words, the way I’m rationalizing the device, ultimately, is they are attempting to maximize by every possible means this extreme torsion shear effect. This is exactly what they are going after. They are trying to figure out if they can manipulate and engineer the fabric of space-time.
换句话说，通过我对这个装置的理解，他们最终是要通过各种可能的手段，达到最大的极端扭曲剪切效应。这才是他们要追求的。他们竭力要搞清楚能否对时空结构进行操作。
BR: With what end?
比：要达到什么目的呢？
JF: To what end, again, I think there’s these three purposes in mind: the Bell is part of a... The departmental oversight, let’s say, of the Bell is three things.
约：他们脑子里有三个目标。BELL项目是一个部分的…对BELL项目的监督，是三个方面的事情。
First, you have some attachment to the Forschung Inviclum Inpatento, which is a super secret SS entity that is pulling every patent application within the Third Reich, and later occupied Europe, that has national security implications.
首先，你不能忘了“Forschung Inviclum Inpatento”。这是党卫队一个超级秘密的单位，能够抽取第三帝国内任何一个工业版权，后来又扩大到占领的欧洲部分。这个秘密单位还有国家保安方面的影响。
Number two, it’s under an entity called SS Entwicklungstelle vier which means Development Area Four. The mission brief of that department is to make Germany energy independent and it’s that department that you have investigating things like controlled fusion, zero point energy, and so on and so forth. So it’s attached to that department.
第二，这个单位是党卫队“Entwicklungstelle”，它的意思是“第四开发区”。这的单位的任务是要保证德国能量方面自给自足。也是这个部门在研究诸如可控核聚变和零点能源之类的项目。因此，这部分属于这个部门的范围。
Then the final department that it’s attached to is General Hans Kammler and his think tank down in the Pils in Czechoslovakia in the Scotia Munitions Works. And the mission brief of that department of the SS is to brainstorm its way from first generation to second and third and fourth generations - and here’s the key - to work out the necessary steps in the technology tree, to get from one to the other, and then to do it. Okay?
最后一个单位隶属于Hans Kammler将军和他的智囊团，地点位于捷克斯洛伐克的皮尔斯，是斯科舍军工厂。它的任务是“头脑风暴”，开发一二三四代科技。这才是关键：要在科技树上找出开发的路子，一个接一个的，然后着手实施。
BR: Mm-hm.
比：嗯哼。
JF: So the Bell is connected with all these departments and what this suggests to me, given the physics involved here, is that they’re trying to create a prototype technology. And I want to emphasize this: This thing is not a UFO, it is not itself a weapon and it is not itself a zero point energy device.
约：于是BELL项目受这些部门的监督检查。联系到这些部门的任务，再参考项目涉及到的物理学，我认为他们是在搞一种技术原型机。不过，我想强调一下：这东西不是什么飞碟！它本身也不是武器，不是零点能量的什么装置。
It’s a prototype technology, or a gateway technology, that they are using in developing to investigate each of those three areas. That I think is what you have with this project. But I think the results were significant enough to them, by 1944, that they give it this extreme classification - kriegsentscheidend - war decisive.
这种原型机技术，或者说是一种门户科技，是他们要用在上面那三个领域进行研发。我觉得这才是这个项目的本质。不过，结果对他们来说非常有吸引力——1944年，他们提升保密级别至最高绝密——Kriegsentscheident，也就是决定战争胜败的级别。
So they’re already seeing the military potential of this thing. This is a field propulsion potential here of just extraordinary capability. And this is a weapon potential here of just extraordinary capability, but it’s a kind of a unified technology.
这时候，他们已经意识到这东西的军事潜力了。它在场推进方面有无与伦比的巨大潜力，在武器应用方面也有无与伦比的巨大潜力——这应该是一种综合性的科技。
BR: Now...
比：现在……
KC: It also sounds like it’s a time machine. I mean, it sounds like it’s creating what Jodie Foster entered, in a sense, in Contact.
凯：听你这么说，也挺像时光机的吧。你看过朱迪·福斯特的《超时空接触》吧？就是她进去坐的那种装置，差不多的。
JF: Right. I use the term “time dilation” here, and I don’t want relativistic associations, but I don’t want people to think that this is a device that can be used as a practical device for time travel - going backward or forward into the future. But the field effects here on plants, I think, are key.
约：啊。我用的词是“时间膨胀”，不过也不应该和相对论有联系。观众们最好不要认为这是一种成型实用的时光旅行机——过去未来，想去哪儿去哪儿。我以为这种场效应才是关键所在。
And another thing I should mention is: I think one of the purposes of this 'Xerum' and the use of probably some isotope of mercury and nuclear isomers was precisely the fact that, if they were able to achieve a severe time dilation effect, the way you’re going to try and measure it is precisely by changes in radioactive decay, okay?
另外我还要说的是：这种Xerum物质的一个目的，和它很可能使用汞同位素和核同分异构体这个事实情况，恰好说明了：假如他们能够获得显著的时间膨胀效应，就能用放射性衰变对这个效应进行精细测量。是吧？