BR: Actually, and secretly, I want to ask it myself too. This is the claimed inference of the Vril Society; those young girls who were channeling, remote viewing, accessing clairvoyant information - whatever you want to call it.
比:这个问题其实,我也想问自己来着。就是所谓的“沃瑞尔协会”——这个协会有一帮年轻女子,能通灵,会遥视,未卜先知,等等等等吧。
JF: Okay.
约:接着说。
BR: That’s been much vaunted…
比:有些理论学家甚至吹嘘……
JF: Yes.
约:对。
BR: …by theorists who claim that they were accessing information that may have come from other realms or other planets or whatever.
比:……说这些人能从另外的空间和世界得到信息。诸如此类吧。
JF: Right.
约:是。
BR: What’s your take on that?
比:你有什么看法?
JF: I don’t base my analysis of the Bell Project, or anything like that, on channeled information or on Neo-Nazi sources. My problem with this story is precisely those two things. That it comes, first of all, from a source that is anecdotal and, secondly, that the ultimate source that’s putting it out has some very shady kind of Neo-Nazi ties, okay?
约:其实我并没有根据这些通灵呀、新纳粹主义来源呀什么的,分析BELl项目或其他项目。你说的这个有两个很明显的问题:首先,这个说法本身就很“子不语怪力乱神”;其次,这个说法的最终出处怎么说也有点和“新纳粹主义”刮边儿吧。
And there’s no other corroboration of it other than the fact that we know that something called the Vril Society did exist, and we know it because it was the German rocket scientist Willy Ley that first mentioned it when he came over to this country to escape the Nazis.
而且,你也找不出多少客观事实证明这个所谓的“沃瑞尔协会”的确存在过。这个说法也是德国火箭专家Willy Ley曾经说的,他当时逃离了纳粹的魔掌,投奔美国。
BR: Mm-hm.
比:嗯哼。
JF: Okay. So we know that that society existed. We don’t know much about it. They did publish a small thin little brochure in Berlin prior to the war. I haven’t been able to get a hold of it. I don’t know what it’s contents are. So, as far as I’m concerned, this is a story that, number one, has kind of a suspect origin and, number two, I haven’t been able to find anything other than this story to corroborate that the Nazis were doing this.
约:好!就算有这个什么协会,可是却知之甚少。战前,在柏林有一本小册子出版,不过我没弄到,所以也不知道内容。就我目前了解的情况,我认为这就是个传说——第一、来源可疑;第二、除了这个协会本身,我还没找到其他作证,证明纳粹有这方面的举动。
I do know that the Ahnenerbe is doing research that we would now consider paranormal or psychic or remote viewing or what have you. Certainly they were. So you’ve got a general context in which something like that might have taken place, but they are alleging that this took place toward the end - in fact in some cases during World War One and toward the end of World War One - long before the Nazis are even on the scene.
我知道纳粹有“先祖研究局”在调查我们认为的超自然哪、特异功能啊、遥视什么的你刚才说的。换了你,你也查!你说的也只是那么一说,有这个情况发生,不过有人也说这个发生的很早,差不多是一战期间或者是一战结束起啊。这离纳粹当政还早着呢!
BR: I thought it was in the twenties.
比:我想在二十年代吧。
JF: No. I think one of these was 1916 and another one was in 19 - and again, I may be mistaken - 1919 I think, close to Berchtesgarten, which is another unusual little coincidence [laughs] in this story, but...
约:不是。我记得一个是在1916年,另一个是,可能不对,是1919年吧。在贝希特斯加登附近,这地方在这个故事里,(笑)可另有一个不同寻常的巧合。不过……
KC: But did you investigate the remote viewing, like the origins of remote viewing, in the Nazi…
凯:你有没有调查过这个,纳粹的遥视起源……
JF: No, no I haven’t. That’s an aspect of the story I think again that is going to come out eventually. The problem now is getting... There are massive amounts of Ahnenerbe documents in the US national archives, but many of them are still unavailable, so the problem is being able to tell a complete story. You see, that’s the whole problem here. It’s not that I don’t think that there is one but right now all we have with the Vril Society is a kind of a general kind of corroboration of a context.
约:没调查过。你说的这个情况,我认为最终会浮出水面吧。因为,问题在于,美国国家档案馆里有大量的“先祖研究局”的档案材料,不过很多都看不到——这个问题本身就有问题,对吧?这方面的问题大了去了——不是说我认为没有你说的情况,而是现今我们没有这个“沃瑞尔协会”的其他作证。
BR: Yes. And presumably you’re also sort of invoking Occam’s Razor by saying it’s not necessary to…
比:嗯。你刚才说“没必要……”的时候,我就琢磨你要说“奥卡姆剃刀理论”了吧……
JF: To go there.
约:会说的。
BR: I understand that.
比:我明白了。
JF: Exactly. It’s not necessary because you have another occult influence at work already within the SS that has a specifically detailed conceptual relationship to the physics being investigated with the Bell and that’s this guy Wiligut.
约:那好。我说“没必要”,是因为在党卫队里,也有所谓的“玄奥神秘”的影响力在起作用,而且当时党卫队机关也在通过BELL项目明确而认真的研究这方面的物理学。这不就是我说的“希姆莱身边的魏忠贤”,Wiligut么?
BR: Yeah.
比:对。
JF: Right. So you really don’t even need to go there. It would be kind of nice icing on the cake, you know, if they figured out: Well, consciousness plays a role in this too and we’re going to investigate that. Well if they’re rationalizing things to that extent, yeah, then we’re in even deeper trouble. [laughs]
约:那好。所以,那些方面就没必要了。不过,你得明白,如果说纳粹也发现了意识和物质之间有联系,并开始着手研究的话,到了那种程度——一方面这对纳粹是锦上添花,但我们可能就会更加麻烦了(笑)。
BR: Okay. Now after all those fascinating set-ups…
比:嗯。这么多引人入胜的花样……
JF: Okay. [laughs]
约:差不多吧(笑)。
BR: …our viewers here, who are thinking this sounds like a detective story; this sounds like Columbo...
比:观众会觉得就像看侦探小说一样——《福尔摩斯探案集》
JF: Or a bad Oliver B movie. [laughs]
约:你其实是想说姜文的《太阳照常升起》吧(笑)。
BR: What was the Bell? What were they trying to do? And what is known what is not known what is theorized and why is this important?
比:那么这个BELL是什么?他们想要做什么呢?有哪些情况是已知的,哪些是未知的,哪些建立了理论,为什么这么重要?
JF: Okay, let me give you the basic data points and then I’ll give you how I kind of rationalize them. My rationalization of it is a bit different that Igor Witkowski and Nick Cook although I kind of build on some aspects of their analysis.
约:我来讲一些基本的数据要点吧。我是如何解释这些要点的——我的解释可能跟Igor Witkowski和Nick Cook有所不同,但是我的一些观点也是建立在他们分析的基础之上。
First of all it’s a device, it’s bell shaped, it stands about twelve to fifteen feet high, nine to twelve feet wide. It’s either cased in a kind of a ceramic metal or just plain old ceramic. It’s got heavy duty electrical port cable - electrical cabling ports - around the device.
首先来说,BELL是一个装置,教堂大钟的形状。高度大约12到15英尺,9到12英尺宽。外面的套子如果不是金属陶瓷,就是普通陶瓷。使用高负载电力端口电缆,电缆端口环绕装置。
Inside the device there are two counter rotating drums - and I want to be clear here. The data that we have does not specify the internal configuration of those drums within the Bell. These two counter rotating drums had a 'serum' - this Xerum 525 (see Hunt for Zero Point) I mentioned earlier - the heavy maroonish-red, probably mercury, compound.
在装置内部有两个反向旋转的汽缸——这里我要说明白,我们手上的材料,没有明确的说明两个汽缸在这个钟型装置的内部。这两个反向旋转的汽缸有“血清”状液体——这个Xerum525(见《搜寻零点》)我之前提过——呈暗红褐色的混合物,很可能是水银。
It is cryogenically cooled either by liquid oxygen or liquid nitrogen and it is close to an electrical power plant and sounds like a beehive Okay? The electrical power plant is kind of to put an hyperbole on it near yards away from the installations that the Bell is being tested in all right?
采用低温冷却技术,要么是液态氧,要么是液态氮。这个装置紧邻发电厂,响的时候像个蜂巢。发电厂贴近这个装置的实验实验设施,近到夸张——只有几码远。
BR: The kind of hum you get from a high voltage generator.
比:是不是那种高压发电机的嗡嗡声?
JF: Yes. Okay. Now let’s put all these things... Those are the data points, and the…
约:是吧。现在我们来把这些情况都……那些都是数据要点,以及……
BR: And this is known how?
比:这个情况是怎么泄露出来的?
JF: This is known by an SS general by the name of Jakob Sporrenberg who was part of this project because he was the general that was tasked, at the end of the war, to go in and murder sixty of the scientists involved with the project.
约:一个党卫队将军,名叫Jacob Sporrenberg,他参与了这个项目。战争结束前,上级交待他要干掉六名项目科学家灭口。
BR: Hm.
比:嗯!
JF: In other words the Nazis want to keep this thing absolutely quiet.
约:也就是说,纳粹是想把这个项目完全隐藏起来。
BR: I didn’t know that.
比:这个我还真不知道。
JF: Oh yeah, that’s how all this comes out. He’s tried for that crime by a Polish War Crimes Tribunal because, of course, Poland slid westward and took over parts of Pomeranian Silesia that were formerly German provinces. And the Bell was tested in that part of Germany that then became Poland after the war.
约:这件事就这样泄露出来。Jacob Sporrenberg将军在波兰军事法庭上因此罪行受到起诉,因为波兰向西扩张,拿下了波美拉尼亚西里西亚的一部分,这部分过去是德国领土。BELL项目就在此处进行实验,战后这片土地变成了波兰领土。
So Poland assumed jurisdiction over this man for that crime and we know it by the affidavit that he gave at that war crimes trial, okay? But it’s important again to realize, it’s after the collapse of the iron curtain, it’s after the collapse of the east German state and basically the shotgun wedding that was had in 1989, that all of this comes out.
所以,波兰对此人的罪行才有管辖权。我们也是通过他在法庭上的供词才了解到。不过,这一切也是在冷战结束之后,东德1989年并入西德之后,才浮出水面。这也很重要。
Now, Sporrenberg also describes the effect of the device on plants. Plants exposed to the field of this thing when it was operating would decay to a kind of a brownish grey goo within a matter of either hours or weeks, this would vary.
Sporrenberg在供词中有描述这个装置对植物的作用。把植物对着这个装置,一旦它开动起来,植物就会腐坏成灰褐色,变的黏糊糊的,时间从几个小时到几周不等。
BR: They’d come apart.
比:分解了。是吧?
JF: Yes. They’d just literally fall apart, just blugh, and they would do so without putrefaction. The first time it was tested apparently the Germans had not done something correctly and seven of the original scientists of the project were killed when it was tested the first time. Later on, apparently, they learned how to kind of control some of these deadly effects a little bit more reasonably.
约:这些植物的确是变的支离破碎,就这么一下子,没有经过腐烂就这样了。第一次实验的时候,德国人好像什么过程做的不对,结果项目最初七名科学家都死掉了。后来,他们似乎学会点经验,可以稍微好一点控制这种致命效果了。
But those are the data points. And one little final bit of information - a final bit of data point... When it was tested underground it had to be tested in a room lined with ceramic bricks over which were placed rubber mats. After each test concentration camp victims would come in, remove the rubber mats, burn the mats and then scrub down the ceramic bricks with brine - okay? That had to be done for some reason after each test.
最后一个要点。当这个装置在地下进行实验的时候,实验室全部都砌瓷砖,上面还盖着橡胶垫。每次实验过后,集中营的奴工要进去撤掉橡胶垫子,还要烧掉;再用浓盐水用力擦洗瓷砖。每次实验之后都这么做——这一定是有原因的。
BR: Radioactivity?
比:难道是放射性?
JF: Yes I think so, I think so. Again... and I’m mentioning that because it’s a crucial data point. Then, when it was tested outside, it was tested apparently inside this henge-like structure that is near all of these strange installations with this electrical power plant right there.
约:我觉得也是。我说这个是因为这是个关键点——这个装置露天实验的时候,这个装置是放在“巨石阵”里的,附近有很多奇怪的建筑设施,是个发电厂。
This henge stood in a kind of a basin - a pool - it looks like, that would have contained some sort of liquid. Around the perimeter of this pool there are... And you can see this on the History Channel documentary with Nick Cook. Igor takes Nick down into this structure and you can see these entry ports for all of this heavy duty electrical cabling, okay?
“巨石阵”的下部像个水池子,看起来应该会放一些什么液体。池子周边……你看过历史频道Nick Cook的纪录片吧。Igor带着Nick下去过,有好些入口端,是布设高负载电缆的。
Apparently, when tested at night, these concentration camp inmates described this barrel-like thing that would glow a pale blue glow and it would rise above the tree line and kind of sit there and then it would fall back down; lower back down.
有时候,实验在晚上进行。住集中营的人描述说,他们看到这个桶一样的东西闪着浅蓝色的光,升到树梢的高度悬浮着。然后越降越低,越降越低。
So those are our data points. I don’t think that the dimensions of the device, at this point in my research, are functionally significant so let’s turn to the cryogenic cooling, okay? We’re dealing already we know with a device that is using these two counter rotating cylinders, and I suspect that their centrifuge isotope technology had something to do with this, because they’re using ultra high mechanical rotation.
这些也都是要点。在我目前的研究里,我觉得这个装置的“维度”也并没有很好的起什么作用。我们就回头说说低温冷却方面吧。这个装置有两个反向旋转的汽缸,我很怀疑他们的离心机同位素技术跟这个有什么关系,因为他们使用的是超高机械旋转。
In other words, this is a precision machine, and it’s being cryogenically cooled. And the first thing that I think of is super-conductivity, you know. Again, high spin system, little resistance. It’s a kind of a self contained little bubble of its own...
这么说吧。这是一种精密设备,采用低温冷却技术。我头一个能想到的,就是它的超导性。你看,又是高速旋转系统,几乎没有摩擦力。它自带小气泡(注:这句话不明白)……
BR: Was superconductivity understood in the physics of that time?
比:当时的物理学上也懂超导性么?
JF: Oh yeah. Sure. Then the next thing is we have this mysterious substance which they’re putting into these cylinders and spinning at high speed. I think that the presence of this power plant and the sound of the Bell, as a beehive, indicates that this whole thing was electrically pulsed with extremely high voltage direct current electricity.
约:当然了。他们注入汽缸的是一种神秘的物质,汽缸高速旋转。这个发电厂的存在,和这个装置的声音,像蜂巢的声音,说明整个的装置是电力脉动式的,使用极高压直流电。
And that the drums were set up - and Igor agrees with me here; this is his analysis that I’m borrowing from - that you have a cathode and an anode and this will arc to the centre. And as this stuff is spinning and cohering along the same plane of rotation and being pulsed, electrically pulsed, it’s going to drive it inward, create little plasmoids, and you’re going to get even more spin out of this thing.
那两个汽缸——这一点Igor同意我的看法,这也是他的分析,我借来用——分正负极,在中心产生的电弧。这玩意儿旋转的时候,在同一旋转平面相凝聚(注:此处应该有误),受电力脉动,驱使它向内,产生极少的等离子粒团,旋转会越来越快。
So, in other words, the way I’m rationalizing the device, ultimately, is they are attempting to maximize by every possible means this extreme torsion shear effect. This is exactly what they are going after. They are trying to figure out if they can manipulate and engineer the fabric of space-time.
换句话说,通过我对这个装置的理解,他们最终是要通过各种可能的手段,达到最大的极端扭曲剪切效应。这才是他们要追求的。他们竭力要搞清楚能否对时空结构进行操作。
BR: With what end?
比:要达到什么目的呢?
JF: To what end, again, I think there’s these three purposes in mind: the Bell is part of a... The departmental oversight, let’s say, of the Bell is three things.
约:他们脑子里有三个目标。BELL项目是一个部分的…对BELL项目的监督,是三个方面的事情。
First, you have some attachment to the Forschung Inviclum Inpatento, which is a super secret SS entity that is pulling every patent application within the Third Reich, and later occupied Europe, that has national security implications.
首先,你不能忘了“Forschung Inviclum Inpatento”。这是党卫队一个超级秘密的单位,能够抽取第三帝国内任何一个工业版权,后来又扩大到占领的欧洲部分。这个秘密单位还有国家保安方面的影响。
Number two, it’s under an entity called SS Entwicklungstelle vier which means Development Area Four. The mission brief of that department is to make Germany energy independent and it’s that department that you have investigating things like controlled fusion, zero point energy, and so on and so forth. So it’s attached to that department.
第二,这个单位是党卫队“Entwicklungstelle”,它的意思是“第四开发区”。这的单位的任务是要保证德国能量方面自给自足。也是这个部门在研究诸如可控核聚变和零点能源之类的项目。因此,这部分属于这个部门的范围。
Then the final department that it’s attached to is General Hans Kammler and his think tank down in the Pils in Czechoslovakia in the Scotia Munitions Works. And the mission brief of that department of the SS is to brainstorm its way from first generation to second and third and fourth generations - and here’s the key - to work out the necessary steps in the technology tree, to get from one to the other, and then to do it. Okay?
最后一个单位隶属于Hans Kammler将军和他的智囊团,地点位于捷克斯洛伐克的皮尔斯,是斯科舍军工厂。它的任务是“头脑风暴”,开发一二三四代科技。这才是关键:要在科技树上找出开发的路子,一个接一个的,然后着手实施。
BR: Mm-hm.
比:嗯哼。
JF: So the Bell is connected with all these departments and what this suggests to me, given the physics involved here, is that they’re trying to create a prototype technology. And I want to emphasize this: This thing is not a UFO, it is not itself a weapon and it is not itself a zero point energy device.
约:于是BELL项目受这些部门的监督检查。联系到这些部门的任务,再参考项目涉及到的物理学,我认为他们是在搞一种技术原型机。不过,我想强调一下:这东西不是什么飞碟!它本身也不是武器,不是零点能量的什么装置。
It’s a prototype technology, or a gateway technology, that they are using in developing to investigate each of those three areas. That I think is what you have with this project. But I think the results were significant enough to them, by 1944, that they give it this extreme classification - kriegsentscheidend - war decisive.
这种原型机技术,或者说是一种门户科技,是他们要用在上面那三个领域进行研发。我觉得这才是这个项目的本质。不过,结果对他们来说非常有吸引力——1944年,他们提升保密级别至最高绝密——Kriegsentscheident,也就是决定战争胜败的级别。
So they’re already seeing the military potential of this thing. This is a field propulsion potential here of just extraordinary capability. And this is a weapon potential here of just extraordinary capability, but it’s a kind of a unified technology.
这时候,他们已经意识到这东西的军事潜力了。它在场推进方面有无与伦比的巨大潜力,在武器应用方面也有无与伦比的巨大潜力——这应该是一种综合性的科技。
BR: Now...
比:现在……
KC: It also sounds like it’s a time machine. I mean, it sounds like it’s creating what Jodie Foster entered, in a sense, in Contact.
凯:听你这么说,也挺像时光机的吧。你看过朱迪·福斯特的《超时空接触》吧?就是她进去坐的那种装置,差不多的。
JF: Right. I use the term “time dilation” here, and I don’t want relativistic associations, but I don’t want people to think that this is a device that can be used as a practical device for time travel - going backward or forward into the future. But the field effects here on plants, I think, are key.
约:啊。我用的词是“时间膨胀”,不过也不应该和相对论有联系。观众们最好不要认为这是一种成型实用的时光旅行机——过去未来,想去哪儿去哪儿。我以为这种场效应才是关键所在。
And another thing I should mention is: I think one of the purposes of this 'Xerum' and the use of probably some isotope of mercury and nuclear isomers was precisely the fact that, if they were able to achieve a severe time dilation effect, the way you’re going to try and measure it is precisely by changes in radioactive decay, okay?
另外我还要说的是:这种Xerum物质的一个目的,和它很可能使用汞同位素和核同分异构体这个事实情况,恰好说明了:假如他们能够获得显著的时间膨胀效应,就能用放射性衰变对这个效应进行精细测量。是吧?